In a fascinating interview, Javed Miri, Head of International Programs at Karuna-Shechen, and Matthieu Ricard discuss resilience from their respective perspectives and experiences.
1. What is resilience according to you?
Matthieu Ricard : Resilience is often seen as a capacity that one can develop. Although there may be innate traits, with some people naturally being more resilient than others, this ability is also strengthened with experience and facing difficulties. By overcoming obstacles, we gradually build inner resources that allow us to manage challenges without being destabilized or destroyed. Trials then become levers for progress. Thus, resilience enables navigating through life’s ups and downs, developing an inner strength that reduces vulnerability without leading to disconnection or insensitivity. It is possible to cultivate resilience just like any other human quality.
Javed Miri : I would add that there are several forms of resilience. There is personal resilience, community resilience, social groups’ resilience, as well as social, economic, environmental, and climate resilience. For each of these, there are actions to take, skills to acquire, and measures to implement. In the humanitarian and development fields, it involves empowering people to overcome and bounce back from shocks.
M.R. : Indeed, most natural disasters are followed by solidarity movements, but it is easy to make serious mistakes in this regard. For example, during Hurricane Katrina, the governor sent in the army due to rumors of looting and rape. In reality, these allegations were unfounded, and the residents were helping each other beautifully before external aid arrived. Sending in the army disrupted this spontaneous order. It is often the local populations who are the first to help each other. Moreover, the more collectivist a society is, as opposed to individualistic, the stronger the community resilience and solidarity is.
2. How do you cultivate your personal resilience?
M.R. : The practice I follow, the path of Buddhism, is a method to cultivate personal resilience. By being less subject to attraction, animosity, obsession, greed, pride, and jealousy, one becomes less vulnerable. If one is dominated by these emotions, the world and others become instruments that threaten one’s well-being, creating a gap between oneself and the world. In my journey, I have modestly tried to focus less on myself. This allows turning towards others, as one has more inner space and is not trapped in the bubble of the ego.
J.M. : Matthieu does this extraordinarily for others, and I try to do it on a more modest scale. By nature, I do not live for myself alone, it would make me sad. For example, I cannot enjoy a delicious meal knowing that someone next to me has nothing to eat. I derive no pleasure from it, I prefer to share my meal. In Persian culture, it is said, “know yourself first, before knowing God.” Philosophically, this is a value I hold dear, because without properly taking care of oneself, one cannot take care of others. As Matthieu said, it makes one strong and resilient not to feel jealousy, for example. When I see someone who has more means than I do, I think, “Good, one less poor person I have to worry about.” This perspective makes me more resilient and more altruistic.
M.R. : The antidote to jealousy is rejoicing: celebrating the qualities and achievements of others. Rejoicing is considered a way to accumulate merit without doing anything. (laughs)
3. What lessons have you learned from the “sad” moments in your lives?
M.R. : I haven’t faced great misfortunes in my life. When something is beyond your control and you’ve done everything you can, there’s no reason to have regrets. Regrets only come if you’ve neglected things, done them poorly, knowing you could have done better. It also pushes you to do better next time, which is positive.
One day, while I was in Hong Kong on my way to Tibet with two doctor friends to manage our humanitarian projects, the police refused me a visa, but not the doctors. When I asked why, they simply replied, “That’s how it is; you can’t appeal.” I accepted this situation, even though I had done nothing wrong and we had been working in Tibet for 15 or 20 years to help, not to cause trouble. If it can’t be done, it’s unfortunate, but that’s how it is. The doctors would continue without me, and I wasn’t going to worry about it. So, I was at peace and returned quietly to my hermitage in Nepal. Although I have seen terrible things around me, such as earthquakes in Nepal and Tibet, misery, and famine, I have been personally spared so far.
J.M. : The first time my personal resilience was tested, I was 19 years old. My father left the family, leaving my mother and my six siblings behind. At 19, I became the head of the family. Taking care of my family was far from easy. However, 25 years later, I realize that it was the most beautiful experience of my life. It allowed me to serve others and find a mission in life, focusing on my family’s well-being. What seemed like a disaster at the time turned out to be the greatest mission life could offer me. The second experience of resilience is related to the first. I accepted to work in very difficult war zones. Many people resigned in these conditions, but it took great resilience, a bit of fatalism, and a touch of madness to stay on site despite the daily attacks.
M.R. : That is more serious than what I said. (laughs)
4. Have you always been able to be resilient, or has it come over time?
M.R. : It’s hard to assess when you’re young because you don’t necessarily ask yourself about your level of resilience. However, in retrospect, I think my life’s journey and the teachings I’ve received have shaped a philosophy centered on values less dependent on external circumstances.
What harms resilience is attributing everything to external conditions over which we have minimal control. These conditions are often temporary and can change overnight. Of course, it is crucial to improve external circumstances to meet basic needs, as we do at Karuna to combat extreme poverty and enable everyone to live a dignified life.
However, we must not neglect the acquisition of internal resources and conditions because we can be miserable in a paradisiacal environment and maintain our joy of living in seemingly unfavorable conditions. This shows that our mind can influence our perception of external conditions in both directions. By strengthening our internal conditions, we acquire the ability to manage external challenges with greater resilience.
J.M. : For me, one of the crucial factors in developing resilience is accepting that the world is not perfect and things don’t always go well, which is perfectly normal. We can face successive trials and learn to navigate them by doing our best.
My philosophy is based on the idea of giving my best in all circumstances. My goal is not to do things perfectly because I am not perfect. What I owe to others and all the organizations I’ve worked for is to give my maximum authentically.
The more we act this way, the more we learn from our past experiences and progress in our ability to correct ourselves. I believe this approach significantly strengthens our resilience.
M.R. : Javed emphasized the importance of navigating life’s circumstances and using specific techniques. In Buddhism, it is taught to cultivate kindness, compassion, rejoicing in the qualities of others, and impartiality, qualities that can mutually enrich and help each other.
Initially, it is recommended to be kind to everyone, but it is easy to develop a bias where we excessively favor those close to us, neglecting others. If this bias turns into indifference towards beings, we can then turn to compassion, a deep awareness of others that helps to free from suffering and its causes. However, focusing too intensely on compassion can sometimes be overwhelming, inducing a sense of powerlessness in the face of the magnitude of challenges. At that moment, it is beneficial to shift to rejoicing in the qualities of others, celebrating the good things that exist in the world without reserve or jealousy.
However, it is essential to navigate with balance between these four qualities—kindness, compassion, rejoicing in the qualities of others, and impartiality—so that they support each other without drifting to extremes. This harmony allows these qualities to grow together, creating a beneficial synergy for our well-being and that of others.
5. How do you conceive resilience in your professional lives?
M.R. : I have multiple professional lives and at the same time, I don’t really have a profession. For me, it’s about doing the best possible with the notion of effective altruism and asking, “Where can we do the most good with the resources, time, and means at our disposal?” Also, we must not be discouraged by the noise of circumstances that can interfere but are not essential in achieving our goal. I remember my friend Raphaëlle, sometimes faced with sexist attitudes in Tibet, which occasionally demoralized her. The Dalai Lama told her that her goal was to build schools, not to make everyone perfect, which is more the role of the Buddha. In humanitarian work, personal imperfections can unfortunately disrupt efforts, be it ego conflicts, corruption, or power struggles. To serve others, we must show resilience by accepting that people are not perfect and that it’s not our job to fix that; it’s useless to dwell on it. We must precisely keep the goal in mind and have resilience to manage the circumstances.
J.M. : Similarly, I categorically refuse to assume that there are too many problems and thus I can’t solve any. For me, even when faced with a mountain of difficulties, I believe you just need to start by lifting one stone, then another, and so on. If I die moving these stones, someone else will come and continue the work.
Some people argue, “In India, there are 1.4 billion people, and the vast majority are poor. Since we cannot solve the problems of all Indians, why bother helping just a few?” My perspective is entirely different: helping even five people means there will be five fewer people living in poverty in Bihar and Jharkhand, for example. Then, we can help six people, then seven. Never give up. Moreover, as Matthieu mentioned, conditions will never be perfect. It takes resilience to handle departures, betrayals, underhanded tactics, and all kinds of unexpected situations. Bearing all this without losing hope or humanity is essential. It is crucial to maintain optimism and determination. This is a different kind of combativeness, necessary to bring out the best in ourselves and do good around us.
M.R. : Santi Deva said, “There is no great difficult task that cannot be broken down into small easy tasks.”
6. The Karuna model of altruism in action, and thus working with communities, reflects a “community resilience.” How would you define this concept?
J.M. : The altruism in action model that we try to design and implement began in my head 20 or 25 years ago. I don’t like to think that we are going to teach people to be more altruistic because it’s a bit reductive, it neglects a quality that people already have. As Matthieu said, during disasters, the first people to help each other are the communities themselves. They try to organize themselves as best they can. At Karuna-Shechen, we seek to develop a model that cultivates this form of resilience.
Our goal is to value and encourage initiatives already underway within our communities and among our collaborators. We want to list all the actions taken because that is the heart of our approach to altruism in action. At the same time, we plan to integrate new forms of altruism in action observed worldwide to combine them with our existing approach. Cooperation, in the spirit of what Matthieu explains, reveals a source of joy far greater than acting alone.
M.R. : In the more difficult regions where we (Karuna) work, people constantly face obstacles or challenges. Community resilience relies on the sum of individual resiliencies. If individuals are very self-centered, they can be vulnerable, contributing to a society marked by uncertainty and fear of the future. The lack of tools to face these challenges can generate anxiety, as seen sometimes in Western societies confronted with political chaos and environmental anxiety.
Collective solidarity is essential to finding global responses to global challenges, such as those related to the environment. Thus, resilience is accompanied by a sense of solidarity and belonging to our common humanity in times of uncertainty. This also involves a sense of universal responsibility and a personal commitment at the local level, establishing a link between local responsibility and global engagement.
Studies have shown that individuals who place more importance on material and extrinsic values, such as social status and material wealth, tend to seek mainly personal pleasure. As a result, they maintain fewer meaningful social relationships that enrich their lives and are less concerned with global issues. In contrast, those who prioritize intrinsic values such as friendship, contact with nature, and the quality of human relationships experience greater personal fulfillment and show a stronger commitment to global issues. These findings highlight the importance of cultures that value less materialism and consumerism, thus fostering better resilience in facing the challenges of the 21st century and beyond.
7. Do you have a striking example of community resilience in your lives?
M.R. : At the time of the Nepal earthquakes, it was mainly the local communities that responded first. Small NGOs, groups of shopkeepers, women, soccer clubs and other local organizations mobilized long before the international relief effort arrived. I was able to observe with my own eyes how people organized themselves and showed impressive solidarity within villages, between villages and within affected communities.
I’ve also seen this in Tibet among nomads, who are very community-oriented. For example, when a woman dies in childbirth, the families in the community directly adopt the newborn child. This community spirit strengthens the resilience of the community as a whole. It’s true that feelings of loneliness are worrying, especially in big cities, where they seem to be on the rise. In New York, for example, 30% of residents live alone. There’s a veritable epidemic of loneliness that’s not the result of a conscious choice, but rather of a solitude felt in the midst of a crowd, without the benefit of quality human relations. This phenomenon is extremely harmful to mental and physical health, encouraging addictions and even reducing life expectancy. In short, the acute feeling of loneliness has extremely detrimental consequences for overall health.
I firmly believe that solidarity is a valuable asset for developing a sense of belonging, as it leads to greater resilience in the face of various difficulties such as famine, earthquakes, landslides, floods and drought.
J.M. : Indeed, it reminds me of my village (editor’s note: in Afghanistan) where my maternal grandfather was the chief. He was responsible for managing water, which was a rare commodity. It came to us from the higher valleys. There was a very complicated system for managing water towers. We were only allowed to have water once a month to irrigate our land and to drink from the dykes we had dug at the time. All this required a lot of organization.
My grandfather was in charge of gathering all the men of the village old enough to be able to stand along the canals and streams, for miles around the valley, and ask the villagers to respect our turn. It was a form of solidarity, with people volunteering. If people didn’t cooperate, no one had access to water. When the water reached the other villages, they kept it, since they also needed to irrigate their land. It took a kind of cooperation and resilience and altruism for our village to get the water.
Another, somewhat less happy, example concerns the way we deal with deaths. In our village, until quite recently, it was customary for the whole family to do absolutely nothing when a death occurred. The only thing expected of the bereaved family was to receive people to give their condolences. Accommodation and meals were provided by the village. It’s a wonderful example of solidarity.
M.R. : Many studies have shown that water is one of the most important “goods”. In south-west Spain, the same problem of drought has arisen, and people are organizing themselves very well to ensure that water is distributed equitably. This is also what we call “generalized reciprocity”. It’s not a contract you sign that says “if I help you, you’ll do the same”, but it’s understood and obvious. If we all get together to harvest a field in Nepal, for example, the next week we’ll go to the field next door. There is self-interest within generalized altruism.
8. I feel like for you, personal and community resilience are very closely linked?
M.R. : They start from the same approach. It’s a state of mind that’s applied to what’s in front of you, and when the field widens to the community, normally it should stay. So for me, it’s a continuity.
J.M. : For us at Karuna, our pond-building projects illustrate the community resilience that flows from individual resilience. Knowing that irrigation water is becoming increasingly scarce, the community must be prepared to allocate a plot of land not for individual use, but as a reservoir of water beneficial to all. This is a testament to their collective ability to demonstrate community resilience. In addition, villagers often contribute financially, or with their time, to the construction and maintenance of these ponds so that they can be used for the benefit of all.
Another example of community resilience is wells. Typically, someone in the village allocates or donates a plot of land to dig a well, providing drinking water for the inhabitants and their livestock. It’s a fine example of resilience and altruism that strengthens communities in the face of environmental challenges and everyday needs.
9. What advice would you give to cultivate resilience in everyday life?
J.M. : If you want to be resilient on a day-to-day basis, you have to accept that the world isn’t ideal and not get demoralized by saying that everything is unfair, because this mentality leads us to diminish ourselves. Secondly, you have to have strategies, but you have to chop them up into little pieces. Placed side by side, they’ll help you get closer to your final goal. Thirdly, something I apply myself, or would like to apply, is to give without expecting anything in return, because that’s what makes people unhappy.
M.R. : It’s essential not to exceed our current capabilities, as aiming too high and too fast can lead to burn-out. It’s important to “take it easy on yourself” while making steady progress: this means constantly cultivating the qualities that strengthen our resilience, both personally and professionally. For me, a good piece of advice would be to remember that resilience has an innate component: we are all more or less resilient to begin with, with varying degrees of sensitivity and fragility.
Whatever our initial starting point, even if we don’t all become “Olympic champions” of resilience, there is plenty of room for improvement through life’s lessons.